Congress vice-president Rahul Gandhi First Ever Interview, full Text
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For the first time, Congress vice-president and poll campaign chief Rahul Gandhi opens up to an elaborate sit down interview with Times Now editor in chief Arnab Goswami.
For the first time after his political debut in 2004, Rahul Gandhi
takes direct questions on wide range of subjects on Frankly Speaking
with Arnab. In the biggest political interview of 2014 Arnab asks all
the questions that India wanted answers from the Gandhi scion. Is he
scared of a political face off against Modi? What is his view of the
1984 Sikh riots? Was he a reluctant politician? And what are his views
on multiple scams that UPA 2 was affected by.
Arnab:
Rahul, Thank you very much. It's great to have you on Frankly Speaking
show today. It's been 10 years as an MP for you, you fought your first
election in 2004 & this is your first TV interview.
Rahul: It's not my first interview, but it's my first formal interview of this type.
Arnab: Why has it taken so long?
Rahul: I have done a little media interaction, prior to this. I have
done press conferences & spoken to the media. But mainly bulk of my
focus has been on internal party work and that's where I have been
concentrating, that is where most of my energy was going.
Arnab: Or is that you have been reluctant to communicate more on one to one basis?
Rahul: Not at all, I have had many many press conferences that you have seen. I don't have that issue.
Arnab: It's not that you wanted to avoid touching on difficult or tough issues
Rahul: I like difficult to tough issues, I like dealing with them.
Arnab:
Now that this is your first detailed & long interview in 10 years,
we have a lot of ground to cover. I have one request to you right at the
start of the interview, let's be as specific as possible on the
subjects we deal with today. Do I have your Agreement on that?
Rahul: Yes, we will be specific but if I would like to sort of explain
things in a broader fashion, I think that will okay with you.
Arnab: If I want to draw you back into specifics?
Rahul: You can draw me back as much as you want
Arnab:
Rahul Gandhi the first point is this; you have just avoided this whole
question about whether you are open to PM's post. It seems to me Rahul
that you are avoiding a difficult contest.
Rahul: See,
if you look at the speech I gave at AICC a few days back. The issue is
basically how the Prime Minister in this country is chosen. The way the
Prime Minister is chosen in this country is through the MPs. Our system
chooses MPs & MPs elect Prime Minister. I said pretty clearly in my
speech in AICC, that if the Congress party so chooses & Congress
party wants me to do anything for them, I am happy to do that. It's
respect for the process. In fact announcing your PM prior to an
election, announcing your PM without asking the members of Parliament,
is not actually written in the constitution.
Arnab: You did that in 2009?
Rahul: No, we didn't
Arnab: Of course you did?
Rahul: What we did in 2009 was that we had an incumbent Prime Minister.
Prime Minister won the election, he then went to Parliament. The
members of Parliament decided that, that Prime Minister will continue,
and there was actually a process where he was asked.
Arnab: But you named your Prime Ministerial candidate?
Rahul: We had an incumbent Prime Minister and there was no question of our changing him.
Arnab:
See Rahul we can go up and down on this question. The fact of the
matter is this, who else will they choose, and who else will Congress
MPs choose if not Rahul Gandhi?
Rahul: That is up to
them right, but what one has to do and this is central to what I keep
saying is that democracy is about respect of processes. Democracy is
about non-arbitrary decisions. Democracy is about spreading decisions;
it is not about destroying processes. There is a process in the
constitution and that process says, and it is clearly written in the
constitution, and it says members of parliament are to be elected by the
population and members of parliament are to elect the Prime Minister.
All I am doing is respecting that process.
Arnab: Are
you avoiding a direct face-off with Narendra Modi? Is there a fear of
loss Rahul because this election is not looking good for the Congress
party from overall estimates? And the growing belief is that if Rahul
Gandhi has not picked up the challenge officially that means that there
is a fear of loss, he is avoiding a direct one on one battle with
Narendra Modi, you must answer that?
Rahul: To
understand that question you have to understand a little bit about who
Rahul Gandhi is and what Rahul Gandhi's circumstances have been and if
you delve into that you will get an answer to the question of what Rahul
Gandhi is scared of and what he is not scared of. The real question is
what I am doing sitting here, you are a journalist, when you were small
you must have said to yourself I want to do something, you decided to
become a journalist at some point, why did you do that?
Arnab: You are asking me the question
Rahul: Yes, I am asking you a question, it is a conversation
Arnab:
Because I like and enjoy being a journalist, it is a professional
challenge for me. My question is you avoiding a direct face-off with Mr.
Narendra Modi?
Rahul: I am going to answer the
question but I just want to ask you, when you were young and thought of
being a journalist what drove you?
Arnab: Once I
decided to become a journalist, I can't be half a journalist. Once you
have decided to get into politics and you are leading your party
effectively, you can't be leading your party by half, so I'll throw the
question, with respect, back to you, Narendra Modi is challenging you on a daily basis?
Rahul: You are not answering my question, but I will answer the
question and that will give you some insight into how Rahul Gandhi
thinks. For that I will have to expand a little bit about my growing up,
how I grew up and the circumstances in which I grew up. What I saw when
I was a child ,was my father, who was a pilot, and because of
circumstances was thrown into the political system and all I saw when
was small after my grandmother died was my father in constant-constant
combat with the system in India and then I saw him die actually. In my
life I have seen my grandmother die, I have seen my father die, I have
seen my grandmother go to jail and I have actually been through a
tremendous amount of pain as a child when these things happen to you,
what I had to scared of I lost, there is absolutely nothing I am scared
of. I have an aim, I have a clear aim in my mind and the aim is that I
do not like what I see in Indian politics, it is something that is
inside my heart. It is like in our mythology when they talk about Arjun,
he only sees one thing, he does not see anything else, you asked me
about Mr. Modi you ask me about anything and the thing that I see is
that the system in this country needs to change, I don't see anything
else and I am blind to everything else. I am blind because I saw people I
love destroyed by the system. I am blind because the system everyday is
unfair to our people, I ask you today, you come from Assam and I am
sure that you also in your work feel the unfairness of the system. The
system everyday-everyday hurts people and I have felt the pain that the
system can cause. I felt the pain with my father, I saw him every single
day of his life, so the question of whether I am afraid of losing an
election or whether I am afraid of Mr. Modi is not actually the point. I
am here basically for one thing, I see tremendous energy in this
country, I see more energy in this country than any other country, I see
billions of youngsters and I see this energy is trapped.
Arnab:
Can I draw you back to my question. I will go into those areas and I
respect what you are telling me about your personal journey, It's not
Rahul, as if I lack empathy for what you are saying, in fact I am pretty
sure many people do but my question to you is Narendra Modi calls you a
Shehzada, now let's be very specific Rahul. Narendra Modi calls you a
Shehzada, a) what is your view of Narendra Modi b) are you afraid of
losing to Narendra Modi, Rahul please answer my question as specifically
as you can?
Rahul: What Rahul Gandhi wants to do, is
Rahul Gandhi and millions of youngsters in this country want to change
the way the system in this country works. What Rahul Gandhi wants to do
is empower the women in this country, wants to unleash the power of
these women, I mean we talk about being a superpower...
Arnab: You are avoiding the question
Rahul: No I am not avoiding the question
Arnab: My question to you is, what is the Congress Vice President's view of the BJP Prime Ministerial candidate
Rahul: I think we will defeat the BJP in the next elections
Arnab: And what is your view of BJP's prime ministerial candidate?
Rahul: The BJP has prime ministerial candidate, the BJP believes in
concentration of power in the hands of one person, I fundamentally
disagree with that, I believe in democracy, I believe in opening up the
system. I believe in the RTI, I believe in giving power to our people.
We have fundamentally different philosophies
Arnab:
What is your view, would like to expound your views, your PM accuses
Narendra Modi in his press conference of presiding over "the mass
massacre of innocent citizens on the streets of Ahmedabad." Mr. Rahul
Gandhi my question to you is this, do you agree with your PM when he
says that?
Rahul: Well, I mean what the Prime Minister
is saying is a fact, Gujarat happened, people died but the real issue
as far I am concerned...
Arnab: How do you accuse Mr. Narendra Modi of it?
Rahul: Gujarat happened, people died. The real issue at hand here is...
Arnab: How is Mr. Modi responsible?
Rahul: He was CM when Gujarat happened
Arnab:
The fact remains that Narendra Modi has been given a clean chit, in the
Gulbarg massacre case by the SIT and the court Mr. Gandhi. My question
to you is "can the Congress party sustain it's attack on Mr. Narendra
Modi on this issue when he has been given the clean chit by the courts
in the Gujarat riots
Rahul : The congress party and
the BJP have two completely different philosophies, our attack on the
BJP is based on the idea that this country needs to move forward
democratically, it needs push democracy deeper into the country, it
needs to push democracy into the villagers, it needs to give women
democratic powers, it needs to give youngsters democratic powers. It is
about opening the doors of the congress party, about empowering the
youth
Arnab : How is Narendra Modi responsible for the
riots when the courts have given him a clean chit, politically your
party's tact to criticise Narendra Modi and draw him into the Gujarat
riots?
Rahul: Our political party is fighting an
ideological battle Against the BJP and let me draw out the two pillars-
our party believes that women should be empowered, democracy should go
to every house, that RTI, and the MNREGA paradigm should be further
expanded. The BJP believes power should be extremely concentrated in
this country, few people should run this country and the large mass of
this country should have no voice.
Arnab: Specifically
speaking how is Narendra Modi, your party criticised him for the 2002
Gujarat riots, and how can you do that when he has been given a clean
chit in the Gulbarg massacre by the SIT of the court. It was challenged
in the court, the court upheld the SIT finding and therefore legally
speaking Mr. Gandhi you cannot draw Narendra Modi into the Gujarat
riots, implicate him personally. Do you believe that strategy of your
party is fundamentally wrong?
Rahul: The strategy of
the party is very simple. Everything we have done over that last
5-10years, in fact if you look all the way back to the freedom movement,
every single thing we have ever done is empower people. We empowered
people in the freedom movement, we empowered farmers in the Green
revolution, and we empowered the citizens of India when we did the
telecom revolution. We have empowered millions and millions of people
through frankly the most powerful legislation that has ever taken place
in this country called the RTI- Right to information. Things that used
to be closed, things that were in closed doors which nobody knew about
Arnab:
I will come to that but you haven't answered my question. Gujarat riots
is the question, your party has consistently wanted to put Mr. Narendra
Modi on the back foot on the Gujarat riots, he says "the court has
given me clean chit" and I am asking you today, is your party's argument
about putting him on the back foot on Gujarat is flawed given the ways
the courts have looked at it
Rahul: The PM has stated
his position on the Gujarat riots. The Gujarat riots took place, people
died, Mr. Narendra Modi was in charge of Gujarat at that point. I am
bringing you to a real ideological battle that is taking place here. The
real ideological battle that is taking place here and the one we are
going to win and that has always been one in this country is the battle
of empowering people in this country. Of course there is your point of
the Gujarat riots and it is very important that people who have taken
part in this kind of thing are brought to book. But the real issue at
hand here is empowering the women of this country, giving them true
power. We talk about India being a superpower we can only be half a
superpower if our women are not empowered. What I want to do is going
forward is basically focus on three things. Focus on empowering our
people, truly empowering our people, giving them democratic rights
within the political party. I want youngsters who come in and really,
really push democracy in the party. I want to empower them and I want to
make India, together with everybody, taking everybody together I want
to put India on the manufacturing map, I want to make this the centre of
manufacturing in the world. I want to make this place at least as much
as a manufacturing power as China.
Arnab: You say that
Narendra Modi was CM during the Gujarat riots and the BJP was in power.
The BJP was as much in power in Gujarat during the riots as much as
Akhilesh is in power in UP or for that matter the Congress party was in
power when the 1984 Anti Sikh riots happened, now let me quote, you
spoke in one of your speeches of the anger of your Grandmothers death, I
think it was campaign trail in Rajasthan. You spoke about knowing the
people who killed her and you spoke about anger and managing your own
anger and quelling your own anger and drawing it into strength
elsewhere. Now that speech of yours became a subject of controversy with
Narendra Modi posing a series a questions to you on 1984 and he said
the following and I want to quote him and your categorical and specific
response "he's crying for the assassination of his Grandmother but has
he shed tears of those killed in the 1984 riots, I want to ask the
Shehzada and you remember Mr. Gandhi he's constantly deriding you by
calling you a Shehzada, whether your party kills Sikhs in anger when
your Grandmother died, so following from this I have 2 questions, my
first question; do you acknowledge the role of congressmen in the 1984
riots, B) will you apologise for the riots as your party demands an
apology from Modi for the Gujarat riots?
Rahul: Two
things, in 1977 when my Grandmother lost the election we went and lived
....and the people who came with my Grandmother, those people who stood
by my Grandmother were Sikhs. Pretty much everyone had deserted my
Grandmother but the Sikhs were standing with my Grandmother. I think the
Sikhs are probably one of the industrious people in this country. I
admire them; we have a PM who is a Sikh. I don't have the same world
view as my opposition. What those two people did to my Grandmother, was
two individuals, I don't turn around and take my anger which existed
then, frankly, it doesn't exist now and brush it onto an entire
community, that's just not me.
Arnab: I am sure you don't, my question is do you acknowledge the role of Congress men in the 1984 riots because
Rahul: I am coming to your question
Arnab:
I am sure you don't, my question is do you acknowledge the role of
Congress men in the 1984 riots because there must be justice. Mr. Gandhi
there has to be finality, the Gujarat riot cases have moved forward and
many people have got justice, if I just compare that to the 1984 riots,
you can look at the status and case history of what happened to Mr.
Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler, HKL Bhagat, Dharam Das Shastri and the one
story that you hear there is these cases are endless, they go on for
the longest period of time. I am asking you again, Mr. Gandhi before you
seek an apology from Modi would you apologise for the 1984 riots, would
that be something that you consider?
Rahul: I do not
take my anger which existed on 2 individuals who did something evil and
wrong and overlay it on millions of people. I think that's criminal. Did
the Sikh riots take place in Delhi? Absolutely. Were they completely
wrong? Absolutely.
Arnab : Were Congressmen involved?
Rahul : Did innocent people die? Absolutely
Arnab : Were Congressmen involved?
Rahul : Some Congress men were probably involved
Arnab : Has justice been delivered to them?
Rahul : There is a legal process through which they have gone through
Arnab : You admit some Congressmen were probably involved
Rahul : Some congressmen have been punished for it
Arnab : In
that case, why don't you apologise for the 1984 riots? The congressmen
who you are talking about are still fighting their cases and in 2009 if I
am not mistaken Jagdish Tytler, Mr. Rahul Gandhi. Was going to get
nominated as a congress candidate, it was only following the media
furore that his nomination was taken back. Mr. Gandhi I am asking you
this question in all seriousness do you feel that Congressmen were
involved and 2)Do you believe if you apologise for the riots there will
be finality
Rahul : The fact of the matter is that
innocent people died in 1984 and innocent people dying is a horrible
thing and should not happen. The difference between Gujarat and 1984 was
that the Government of Gujarat was involved in the riots
Arnab: How do you say that
Rahul: I mean....
Arnab : The CM of Gujarat has been given a clean chit by the courts
Rahul : The difference between the 84 riots and the riots in Gujarat
was that in 1984 the Government was trying to stop the riots. I
remember, I was a child then, I remember the Government was doing
everything it could to stop the riots. In Gujarat the opposite was the
case. The Government in Gujarat was actually abetting and pushing the
riots further. So there is a huge difference between the two things,
saying that innocent people dying is absolutely wrong
Arnab : Explain that. Government of Gujarat was aiding and abetting the riots is what you just said, explain that?
Rahul : I mean it's not me...it's the large number of people who were
there, large number of people who saw actively the Government of Gujarat
being involved in the riots.
Arnab : You will keep that line despite the CM getting a clean chit form the courts?
Rahul : I mean, people saw it. I am not the person who saw it, your colleague saw it. Your colleagues told me
Arnab : They saw the riots?
Rahul : The saw the administration actively attacking minorities
Arnab: What are you saying? Can you explain?
Rahul : I am saying that there was difference between the 1984 riots
and the riots in Gujarat. The difference was that the Government in 1984
was trying to stop the riots, trying to stop the killing whereas the
Government in Gujarat was allowing the riots to happen.
Arnab:
If the government in Delhi and in the center was trying to stop the
riots in 1984, then tell me, how is it possible that Sajjan Kumar
was named in Fir's on the grounds of inciting violence in outer Delhi
leading to the murder of Sikhs. The status of the case is known. How is
Jagdish Tytler, accused of inciting the mob in Pulbangash leading to
murder and rioting in the area. How is the late HKL Bhagat accused of
inciting violence. And you know that a plea in the Delhi Court was
closed after his death. How did these Congress leaders do what they did
allegedly, if the government was so strongly and proactively acting
against the riots?
Rahul: There is a process. See there is a legal process. And that process is on. Okay.
Arnab:
There was an SIT finding. It was challenged by Zakia Jafri. It went up
there and the courts upheld what the SIT found. Are you questioning the
wisdom of the courts Mr. Gandhi?
Rahul: Look. All I'm
saying, all I'm saying is that there is a difference between the 1984
riots and the Gujarat riots. The simple difference is that in 1984 the
government was not involved in the massacre of people. In Gujarat it
was. The question is why do these kind of things take place. Why is it
that the Gujarat riots took place? The Gujarat riots took place frankly
because of the way our system is structured, because of the fact that
people do not have a voice in the system. And what I want to do. And I
have said it and I will say it again. What I want to do is question the
fundamentals over here. What I want to do is ask a couple of questions. I
want to ask why candidates that are chosen in every single party are
chosen by a tiny number of people. I want to ask why women have to be
scared to go out on the street. I want to ask these questions. These are
fundamental questions.
Arnab: I appreciate that you
believe in transparency. I'll move away from Gujarat but I must say that
I have not found this comparison between 1984 riots and 2002 riots that
they are two different cases. I can't take this at face value Mr.
Gandhi. The reason for this is because in both cases the government, the
accusation is that the government could have done a little bit more.
But at the same time I want you to, once more if you can substantiate.
You stand by what you said, that the Chief Minister and the government
of Gujarat played a role in abetting the riots? You stand by what you
said?
Rahul: All I'm saying is there is a difference
between the 1984 riots and the Gujarat riots. The difference is that the
government of the day in 1984 was not aiding and abetting the riots.
That is all I'm saying.
Arnab: So you don't need to
apologise for the '84 riots. If someone seeks an apology from you, will
you give it? Your Prime Minister has apologised for the riots. Expressed
deep regret. Will you do the same?
Rahul: First of all I wasn't involved in the riots at all. It wasn't that I was part of it.
Arnab: On behalf of you party.
Rahul: I think that riots, as all riots, were a horrible event. Frankly I was not in operation in the Congress party.
Arnab:
Mr. Gandhi let's move on to the RTI. Which is the single biggest
legislation to combat corruption. Which you said in your speech at the
AICC that was something that you were speaking about. Now, I find it
ironical that a party which has 90.38% of its funds from cash between
2008 and 2012. 89.11% of its money comes from unaccounted sources,
unnamed sourced. Why would you not say charity begins at home? And let
us put the Congress party and its funds under the scanner of the RTI.
Why would you not bring the same freshness of perspective in this case
as you did when you dealt with the issue of the ordinance.
Rahul: I think that political parties should be under RTI if political
parties feel, and it's a law that has to be passed in parliament. If
political parties unanimously feel that that should be the case then it
should be the case.
Arnab: What was your view? What will be your view on it?
Rahul: My position is that the more openness the better.
Arnab: So your own personal view is that your political parties should be under RTI?
Rahul: See the issue is this. Laws in this country are passed by
parliament. What one needs to do is pass a law in parliament that brings
RTI in the political party. I have a personal view on it but you have
to take that view through parliament. I have a view also for example on
the six bills that are sitting in parliament.
Arnab:
I'll come to that. But my question is on the RTI. I want your view on
it. You are a very influential politician. You have demonstrated some of
your actions in the past that what you say and do can influence the
decisions in government and in parliament. So my question to you is very
significant. You said, in the AICC you said we enacted this
revolutionary law to hand you power knowing fully well that it would
place our own government under severe scrutiny. I agree with you. What
about placing your own party under scrutiny? Are you open to that?
Rahul: I am the first person who has been saying over the last five
years, talking about transparency in the party. I have made the Youth
Congress and the NSUI fully elected bodies. I have spoken about the six
bills in parliament. I have spoken about the Lokpal Bill and I have
pushed the Lokpal Bill. I was involved in the RTI. We worked together to
bring the RTI. So as far as transparency in the political party is
concerned I am absolutely for transparency. There are questions about
the RTI that need to be discussed and thought through. The real question
is that our system is based on different pillars. And the question is
which ones of these pillars should have RTI. Because, if you only put
RTI into one pillar and you don't have RTI in for example the judiciary
and the press and in other areas then you might create an imbalance. Am I
for opening up? Am I for bringing RTI into as many places possible?
Absolutely. Am I for creating an imbalance and weakening the legislative
structures of this country. No I am not.
Arnab: How
does putting political parties under the purview of the Right to
Information Act, how does that actually weaken the legislative process?
It brings in transparency.
Rahul: It brings in transparency but it changes the balance of power.
Arnab: How?
Rahul: Because the judiciary does not come under RTI. The press does
not have RTI. Other components of the system do not have RTI.
Arnab: The press does not rule the country.
Rahul: No it doesn't. Okay. The Judiciary does not have RTI. So you
have to have a complete thinking. So if you want to bring RTI. If you
want to deepen RTI, you have to think about it in a composite manner.
You cannot just say, 'Okay let's put RTI here, put RTI here'. You have
to have a strategy to put RTI and open the system together. And as far
as opening the system is concerned.
Arnab: But you are willing to let a discussion happen on brining political parties under RTI?
Rahul: Of course I am.
Arnab: You're not opposed to that.
Rahul: No I am not opposed to any discussion, ever.
Arnab: On this specific subject.
Rahul: On all subjects. One has to take care that one is not creating
imbalances in the system. And that's something that one has to discuss.
Arnab: Mr. Gandhi do I sense that you are almost committing yourself and then pulled back.
Rahul: No, no, no. I have said that I am happy to have a discussion.
Arnab: You're happy to have a discussion?
Rahul: Of course.
Arnab: On bringing political parties under RTI?
Rahul: Absolutely.
Arnab: Mr. Gandhi.
Rahul: But let me just go back and let me give you... Let me go further
than that. The central question in all this is who chooses political
candidates and how? The central issue in all this is what is the power
of the Member of Parliament, the power of the MLA and the power of the
Pradhan in political system? If you look at the legislative power of a
Member of Parliament, you look at the legislative power of an MLA today
and you look at the role he plays in Parliament and the role he plays in
the assembly. He doesn't actually make laws. He presses buttons. Go to a
state like Uttar Pradesh and you look at actually the law making, the
law making done by the MLAs, it's extremely limited. You can't talk
about bringing people into politics. You can't talk about opening up the
system until you start to empower these people.
Arnab: Was it part of the empowerment of people that Ashok Chavan
was protected in the Adarsh Scam despite the fact that the judicial
commission actually said that he was involved in a quid pro quo? A Chief
Minister, an ex Chief Minister forced to go because of one of the
biggest scams. Which was by the way Mr. Rahul Gandhi played out greatly
on TIMES NOW. Is he being protected? The CBI is not getting permission
to prosecute him. You can say all this Mr. Rahul Gandhi about the
legislative framework to fight corruption. But my question to you is
more fundamental. You have not shown the political will to use your
tremendous influence to ensure that Ashok Chavan faces justice. You said
a little bit and you moved back. Why are you still protecting Ashok
Chavan.
Rahul: I'm sorry the Congress party wherever
we have had issues of corruption we have taken action. On every front.
We are the ones who brought the RTI which is the single biggest weapon
against corruption. And we got it ourselves. We are the ones who
delivered RTI to this country.
Arnab: Your Maharashtra
cabinet rejected the judicial commission report on Adarsh. And after
that the governor refused to give prosecution to go against Ashok
Chavan. None of this was part of the empowerment of the people. You said
you're not for it. After that in some kind of tardy, if I may say so,
partial acceptance of the report. The bureaucrats are blamed and each
and every politician including Mr. Ashok Chavan gets away. I want to ask
you Mr. Rahul Gandhi. You said you will not compromise. You will not
make small compromises. How big a compromise was it for you to continue
to protect Mr. Ashok Chavan. Why are you protecting Ashok Chavan?
Rahul: I made my position on Ashok Chavan clear
Rahul: Ashok Chavan absolutely clear. I made it front of a press
conference. I made it absolutely clear exactly what I thought about that
issue. Let me again go back to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is
bringing in youngsters into the political system. Opening the doors...
Arnab:
The Chief Minister did a sort of partial acceptance which basically
means bureaucrats are faulted in the report. They are penalised.
Indicted politicians get away. Mr. Rahul Gandhi I am asking you this
because you've come up on the issue. Do you have the political
conviction to push this through. What will you say to the people
watching this interview today, who will say, 'You know what, you said
it' but you're not taking responsibility. The man still gets away
scot-free. Why should a bureaucrat be punished and a Congress politician
be let off?
Rahul: What I will say is that in the Congress party anybody who does any act of corruption will be taken up and punished.
Arnab: What about Ashok Chavan?
Rahul: Every single person.
Arnab: But he has got away.
Rahul: What I will say is that there are six bills in parliament that are sitting there bring them in. Pass them.
Arnab:
But your words are not matching your actions Mr. Rahul Gandhi. You're
saying it but all the politicians they got away scot-free, including not
just Ashok Chavan. There are several NCP ministers. All of whom tried
to interfere and meddle in the process. They used the name of Kargil Mr.
Rahul Gandhi to give themselves private profit. If you say this and you
have the conviction why are you not following it through?
Rahul: I have made it absolutely crystal clear right in front of the
press what I think about this issue. Arnab: But nothing happened.
Rahul: What do you mean nothing happened?
Arnab: Ashok Chavan faces no action.
Rahul: Absolutely not. What all I'm saying is that anybody, regardless
of who he is, if there is any corruption by any Congress person we will
take action.
Arnab: Would you like to see Ashok Chavan
facing action? Rahul: We have punished our own minister. We have put the
most powerful bills in the Parliament house. Please get those bills
passed. That's what I tell the opposition in this country.
Arnab:
I am giving you two examples. One ex Chief Minister and one a current
Chief Minister. Virbhadra Singh. My question to you is we have papers
which have shown that the Chief Minister takes money from a company
which his government does business with. And he takes money. Large
amounts of money are put in. And then he says I just took the money as a
personal loan because I wanted to do renovations in my Palace. My
question is Mr. Rahul Gandhi. And this is really fundamental because you
have taken a position on corruption of late. Do you think it
appropriate of another Chief Minister of a state to be deciding on the
fate of a company, that he is revealed to have close links with? And by
not speaking on it, because you've not spoken on it, aren't you missing
on yet another opportunity to address the issue of corruption with
Virbhadra Singh?
Rahul: As far as any corruption done,
there is a legal process. And that legal process should be followed and
concluded. As far as my personal view is concerned, anybody who is
corrupt should be brought to book.
Arnab: Was the legal process completed when A Raja was asked to leave the cabinet?
Rahul: We took action against the DMK ministers.
Arnab: Was the legal process completed when Mr. Kalmadi was asked to leave as Secretary of the Congress Parliamentary Committee?
Rahul: We took action on the corrupt ministers. We have passed a bill
in parliament. The Lokpal Bill. The most powerful thing. We got you RTI
and we got six bills sitting in Parliament house. We have to change the
way the system works. We are always talking about peripheral things. We
are never talking about the core reason this system is corrupt. The core
reason the season is corrupt is that there is too much concentration of
power in the system and people on the peripheries do not have power.
The people on the streets do not have power. And that the reason that
happens is that our political system, political parties are shut. We
need to open the door of the political parties. We need to move, carry
out more legislation like RTI and we need to change the system.
Arnab:
Are you open to taking action on Ashok Chavan and Virbhadra Singh? Have
you seen the papers yourself? Will you examine them Mr. Gandhi? Will
you examine it?
Rahul: Anybody who is corrupt should
be punished. I am not a judge. So if there is a legal process and there
is a result of the legal process, absolutely they should be punished.
Arnab: There is no case being followed against Mr. Virbhadra Singh.
Rahul: Yes I know that but I am saying that it is not my job. My job is
when I see issues of corruption, take action on it. That's what I do.
Arnab:
Well Mr. Gandhi now you see. The other question is, should you have
spoken up much much earlier? You know you didn't. Everyone wants to know
today why you didn't speak up during 2G. Why didn't you speak up during
Coalgate? Why didn't you speak up? I think it was June 2010 that TIMES
NOW broke the CWG scam and railgate. You could have spoken up. And you
can't take the defence that you were not very actively there. You have
for some time been effectively in-charge of the 2014 re-election
campaign.
Rahul: My position was that I report to the
Prime Minister. Whatever I felt I had conversations with the Prime
Minister. Whatever I felt about the issues I made it abundantly clear to
the Prime Minister. I was involved in the legislation, RTI legislation.
And now I have helped pass the Lokpal Bill. I bring you back. The real
issue here is participation of people in politics. It is bringing
youngsters into the political system, it's opening out the political
system. That's where nobody wants to talk. Everybody is perfectly happy
with 500 people running the entire system in India. Nobody, none of you
want to raise that issue. The fundamental issue. How do we chose
candidates?
Arnab: Do you feel that you have undermined
by remaining silent? I want to ask you this when the Pawan Bansal and
Ashwini Kumar episode happened for six days the Govt batted back,
everyone said this is unacceptable. Six days the Parliament was washed
out, do you feel in retrospect that you could have spoke out earlier,
Mr. Gandhi please be frank with me on this.
Rahul:
What I feel is that this country needs to look at the fundamental issues
at hand, the fundamental political issue at hand is that our Political
system is controlled by too few people and we absolutely have to change
the way our political system is structured, we have to change our
Political parties, we have to make them more transparent, we have to
change the processes that we use to elect candidates, we have to empower
women in the political parties, that is where the meat of the issue but
I don't hear that discussion, I don't hear the discussion about how are
we actually choosing that candidate, that is never the discussion.
Arnab: So I am asking you how are you choosing Ashok Chavan? That is a discussion I am willing to have, how are you choosing Virbhadra Singh , they are elected representatives they hold clout, does their clout make them oblivious to public accountability and scrutiny?
Rahul: Their clout doesn't make them oblivious, but the point here is
the system is the system behind them that has no processes no systems
and we just assume that thing is going to work. What we have to do is we
have to open that up. We have to bring youngsters into that and that
no-one is discussing.
Arnab: Mr. Gandhi a lot of people
felt when you said that I will not make compromises, you have got a
round of applause when you spoke up on the ordinance. There are many
people have faulted you for your technique, they say you could have
chosen a more discreet way. My question is will you make compromises,
are you willing to make compromises for political purposes, alliances or
convenience?
Rahul: My long term view is that we need
to take the Indian political system to a different place. We need to
bring in youngsters and we need to move away from this concentration of
power. Unfortunately the political system today is at a particular place
and I can't simply ignore the fact that the political system is at that
place, so certainly there are points at which you might have to take a
decision that you are not a 100% happy with but the long term idea for
me is to transform the system, to bring in youngsters and make sure they
are empowered.
Arnab: Lalu Prasad has been convicted
on the 30th of September 2013 for the alleged fraudulent withdrawal of
crores of rupees from the Chaibasa treasury in the 90s, the case you are
completely aware of. My question is will you make that compromise
despite that case to enter into a political arrangement, because when
you spoke on the ordinance there was also the backdrop of that case
coming up, will you make that compromise?
Rahul: These decisions of the Congress party are made by senior leaders.
Arnab: You are the boss.
Rahul: Our alliance in Bihar is with a political party with an idea not
an individual, we are making alliance, and it is not certain that we
are going to make an alliance, we are in process of talking to people
and our alliance is with an idea, with a party, not an individual
Arnab:
If I were to take that further and challenge you that there is talk of a
possible alliance with the DMK and Lalu Prasad, and if you are accused
by your political opponents that he talks about not making compromises
but he agrees to enter into convenient alliances with parties for short
term gains, how will you justify yourself?
Rahul: We
are fighting an election, we are going to win that election, there are
our alliance partners, there is our alliance partner in Maharashtra, and
there is our alliance partner in Bihar and Jharkhand. We are making an
alliance with their view not with an individual.
Arnab: Leader of the party is Lalu Prasad, hence you are making an alliance with an individual?
Rahul: No, we are making an alliance with a political party.
Arnab: But these are not settled alliances yet but you are open to them?
Rahul: Yes
Arnab:
Mr. Gandhi the other question is about price rise and you got a round
of applause when you spoke about the LPG cylinders, you told the Prime
Minister quite charmingly - that Mr. PM please make things less
difficult for households. But I am questioning your silence all these
years, because in this period from 2004-2013 the wholesale price index
of food goes up by 157%, vegetables by 350% and Onions by 521%, you
don't speak on that. When Raj Babbar says you can get food at 12 rupees a
meal, you don't speak then , when Rashid Masood says you can get food
at 5 rupees a meal you don't speak then, the accusation there is and the
general feeling Mr. Rahul Gandhi is that you have really woken up to
the issue after the 4-0 drubbing in the last state election, do you
concede that?
Rahul: No, I think women are the
backbone of this country and women need to be empowered and I felt that
price rise is an issue cylinders were a big issue, I went to Kerala and I
go a sense that women were concerned about that and I made that view
clear to everybody in the AICC session.
Arnab: But you didn't intervene earlier?
Rahul: I have been working with the PM on the Price rise issue, I have
been in discussions with him and we have taken steps in our states,
where we have called the Chief Ministers and we have taken steps where
we have actually reduced the prices of vegetables in our states, so it
is not that I just woke up, it is that I have been working on it
systematically. But what I really feel that we need to start looking at
empowering women, bringing them in and listening to them.
Arnab: Did UPA 2 let you down on prices?
Rahul: Prices are a reality...
Arnab:
Did the Govt let you down, when I look back at your comments I find a
comment each time, in 2009, 2010, 2011 you had lot of faith in the PM...
Rahul: I still have faith in the PM he is our leader...
Arnab: Does the Govt's track record on prices not make your faith in the PM shake a little?
Rahul: We are working on prices, as I said we have spoken to our Chief
Ministers and we have reduced prices in states where we are in power.
Arnab: So you have not woken up to it only because of political purposes?
Rahul: No
Arnab:
Mr. Gandhi what do you think of the Aam Admi Party and why are your
views constantly shifting on the AAP, on the 8th of December after the
loss you quite candidly spoke about traditional and non-traditional
parties - non-traditional parties being those who have involved a lot of
people. Suddenly I find that now seem to be over critical of the AAP, I
presume you were talking of them when you said that there are people
who can give haircuts to the Bald, were you referring to them when you
said parties who over market themselves, which parties were you talking
about?
Rahul: The work that I have done in the
Congress party, the work that I have done in the youth Congress and the
work that I am going to do in the future is about bringing in youngsters
into the party, strengthening processes, strengthening candidate
selection process and strengthening policy processes. I made a comment
about the AAP where I said that there is something that we can learn
from them and what I felt that we could learn from them is that they
reached out to people in a particular way that was good, there are
things that I don't think we should take away from them. I think we have
fundamental strengths in the Congress party and it is something that we
have been working on for 3-4 years now and the real power of the
Congress party is the depth of the organization and you can't makes
changes by destroying things.
Arnab: But in a recent
interview Mr. Chidambaram said he felt the decision to give support to
the AAP was unnecessary and that the opinion was divided on this within
the Congress. Having seen what you have seen in recent days and the
chaos that followed in Delhi, do you agree with that view? Do you feel
in retrospect that support to the AAP is something you shouldn't have
done? Please be candid and frank with me on this.
Rahul: I think that as far as I am concerned that the AAP won an
election in Delhi and we thought that we would assist them Arnab: They
got less seats than the BJP
Rahul: We thought we would assist
them, because our party felt we should give them a chance to prove
themselves and one can see what they are doing and one can see exactly
how much they have proved themselves.
Arnab: What is your view on Arvind Kejriwal?
Rahul: He is a leader of an opposition party like many others, what we
have to do as the Congress party and again in front of us is an
election, what we have to do is 3 things. One is we have to transform
ourselves, we have bring in youngsters, we have to give them space. Two
is we have to look at manufacturing, we have already set up the
corridors North, South, East & West, how we can take the energy of
the Indian people and build a manufacturing superhouse... That is what I
think the real issues are.
Arnab: Are you using the AAP to split the Anti Congress vote bank, to keep Mr. Modi out of power
Rahul: You are implying that we have brought the AAP...
Arnab:
I am not implying, there is a theory that the Congress is propping up
the AAP and keeping them on an extended leash so that they somehow
divide anti-Congress vote bank. Had the AAP not been there the BJP would
have done better and that experiment could be extended?
Rahul: I think you underestimate the power of the Congress party, I
don't think the Congress party could even do that if they wanted to. The
Congress party is an extremely powerful system and all the Congress
party needs to do is bring in younger fresher faces in the election
which is what we are going to do and we are going to win the election.
Arnab: You will win the election?
Rahul: Yeah, I will win the election
Arnab: You are confident about that?
Rahul : Reasonably confident
Arnab: And if you don't win do you take full responsibility for it ?
Rahul: If we don't win, I am the VP of the party of course I will take responsibility for it..
Arnab: If the AAP goes against Sheila Dikshit in the CWG scam, will you continue to support them?
Rahul: I have already said that regardless of who the person is, if
there is an issue of corruption the law should take its own course,
that's my position.
Arnab: Mr. Gandhi I now want to
understand a little bit on your personal side, my first question is that
you have faced a lot of criticism, how do you handle criticism? People
say he has his heart in the right place but is he a vote catcher, they
pull out all the recent state elections UP, Delhi, MP, Rajasthan and
Chhattisgarh, they say he has not despite playing an active role
achieved considerable electoral success. They are questioning your vote
winning ability, what would you say to them Mr. Gandhi?
Rahul: I would say when we win an election, when we won Uttarakhand,
Himachal and when we won Karnataka , I am not involved, when we lose an
election I am the cause of it. But once again I think what the Congress
Party need to do is tap its potential, what the Congress party needs to
do is change the way the its organisation is structured and look at
changing the way politics in this country is structured, that is where I
think we should head. Questions about whether we have supported AAP or
not supported AAP, frankly it is a ridiculous notion. It is ridiculous
that we would construct the AAP...
Arnab: You supported them, you gave them a lease of life so that they divide the Anti Congress vote
Rahul: That ascribes huge power to the Congress party, I think the
Congress party's strength comes when we open up when we bring in new
people, that is historically been the case and that is what I want to
do.
Arnab: Mr. Gandhi why do you keep invoking your
family name. I have seen you refer, with respect, to your father and
your grandmother repeatedly. Now Mr. Gandhi some would say you should be
careful of doing that because when you invoke your family and its
achievement from the Congress, you can be accused of touting your family
background for your own political career and the second is you would be
re-entrenching yourself in the role of being a dynast at a time when
being a dynast is not seen to be a good thing? Do you agree?
Rahul: I don't actually keep invoking my family name, I have mentioned
my family name once or twice and then people report that. The real issue
is that I didn't choose to be born in this family, I didn't sign up and
say that I like to be born in this family it happened, so the choice in
front of me is pretty simple I can either turn around and say okay I
will just walk away from this thing and leave it alone or I can say I
can try and improve something. Pretty much every single thing I have
done in my political career has been to bring in youngsters , has been
to open up, has been to democratise. I am absolutely against the concept
of Dynasty, anybody who knows me knows that and understands that. But
you are not going to wish away Dynasty in a closed system, you have to
open the system. Dynasty or children of politicians becoming powerful
happens in the BJP, it happens in the DMK, it happens in the SP, it
happens in the Congress party, it happens everywhere.
Arnab: Then how are you different?
Rahul: You have to go into why it is happening.
Arnab:
It is happening because dynasties are allowed to proliferate, it is
because a Scindia's son is a minister a Deora's son is a minister a
Pilot's son is a minister. A PM's son is the Congress VP that is
dynasty. Change is not happening at the top, you want change at the
bottom. There are people out there who are saying that we want change at
the top.
Rahul: The reason children of politicians
keep getting repositioned is because the system is closed. You are not
going to change that without opening the system, you are not going to
open the system without having processes, the system is not going to
open by waving a wand and saying Abracadabra let us open the system. It
is going to take time, it is going to take effort and it is going to
take structure. That is the work that I do. That is the work I spent a
whole bunch of my time doing that is the revolutionary work I have done
in the IYC and the NSUI that is the work we are doing when we talk of an
open manifesto. That is the work we are doing when we talk of 15
parliamentary seats being chosen.
Arnab: Only 15?
Rahul: Absolutely, because one needs to set up the systems, if I was to
suddenly launch into 543 seats directly elected by our people the
system would explode. What I need to do is I need to set up an idea,
test the idea, run the idea, if it makes sense, if it works then move it
to the rest of the party. The step we have taken with those 15
primaries, we get that much of a little piece in the newspaper, but that
is probably the biggest political step taken in this country. It is a
huge-huge step and I think those are the types of questions one needs to
ask, one doesn't ask them, one asks questions that don't actually reach
to the heart of the issue. You are talking about India, we have had a 1
hour conversation here, you haven't asked me 1 question about how we
are going to build this country, how we are going to take this country
forward, you haven't asked me one question on how we are going to
empower our people, you haven't asked me one question on what we are
going to do for youngsters, you are not interested in that.
Arnab:
That wrong Mr. Gandhi, if I wanted to know that I would hear a Rahul
Gandhi speech, this is not a Rahul Gandhi speech this is a Rahul Gandhi
interview. Mr. Gandhi I see that you have this knack of trying to throw
the question back at me, I can only tell you Mr. Gandhi I am going to
ask the questions. My question is how do you handle this. The other view
is that you are a fragile person, you get affected by criticism.
Subramanian Swamy has raised questions on your degrees, he says why does
he claim he has an M.Phil from Cambridge; Cambridge has no record of
his thesis, you can't get an Phil
without a thesis, he says yes he went to Harvard when Rajiv Gandhi was
PM, someone gave 11 million dollars to Harvard medical school, donors
quota, once you enter Harvard said to him we don't think you belong
here, so he dropped out. He has questioned both your degrees, I want you
today...
Rahul: Were you in Cambridge
Arnab: I was at Oxford
Rahul: But you spent some time at Cambridge?
Arnab: I was a visiting fellow at Cambridge for a while.
Rahul: So where were you at Cambridge?
Arnab: At Sydney Sussex college
Rahul: So I was at Trinity in Cambridge, I spent a year there, I did my M.Phil there.
Arnab: I want your response to Subramanian Swamy, how do you deal with this?
Rahul: You want me to show you my degree, I can show you my degree
Arnab: Would you like to show him your degree?
Rahul: He has probably seen my degree, I have given a sworn affidavit
saying I that I have got these degrees, If I am lying on these
affidavits let him take the legal process and solve it , what more do
you want me to do.
Arnab: You challenge him
Rahul: Why should I challenge him? Arnab: He's attacked you personally
Rahul: He's been attacking my family for 40 years. Why should I challenge him?
Arnab:
Does it affect you Mr. Gandhi when you are attacked at a personal level
and how do you choose not to respond? How do you bury your head in the
sand and say this is not happening? It's happening to you. You are being
criticised
Rahul: I respond by understanding why I'm
being attacked. I'm being attacked because I'm doing things that are
dangerous to the system. I'm being attacked because I'm asking questions
that are dangerous to the system. And I'm not asking superficial
questions. I'm not asking questions over here (pointing at the ceiling).
I'm asking questions over there (pointing to the ground). And everybody
understands that this fellow here is not just a superficial chap who
talks. This fellow over here is thinking deeply and is thinking long
term. That's why I'm attacked. I understand that. And frankly, attack me
all you want. Beat me to death. It's not going to stop me. I'm going to
keep doing it. And I'm going to ask the questions that are relevant.
And you know what, I have thousand people in the Congress party, two
thousand people in the party who are working on this stuff. They're not
letting go. And I'm proud of them, they're not letting go. It doesn't
matter. Keep throwing stones at us. That's the point. The point is,
people who are attacked in this system, the people who are actually
attacked, are the ones fighting the system. You understand that? They're
not the people who sit and ask, the superficial questions. They're the
ones who're actually saying, let's do something about this system.
They're the ones who are going deep into the system and understanding
that this is the crux of it. And the crux of it, Arnab I've told you.
The crux of it is how we choose candidates. The crux of it is how we
make policies. That's the crux of it. The thing is, you don't like
discussing it. You like discussing stuff that really, doesn't go to the
core and I'm a serious politician. I'm not somebody who's here to get
power, or make money or something. I'm somebody who's here, who's seen
what the system does to people. I've seen, and I can give you example
after example which is on my mind. But I'm not going to fight the
superficial battle. I just am not. It's not interesting to me. I'm going
to fight a battle. I'm going to fight a deep battle. I'm going to take
the youngsters of this country and line them up. And I'm going to then
take the system on. Don't forget that.
Arnab: You don't have a thick skin, Mr. Rahul Gandhi. Politicians need to have a thick skin.
Rahul: If I don't have a thick skin right now, it'll get thick
Arnab:
You say you're a very serious politician. I assure you Mr. Gandhi, I'm a
very serious journalist. Therefore when I interview Rahul Gandhi, his
first interview in 10 years, it's my responsibility to ask you specific
questions. I'm glad you're taking them. My next question to you, and I
have only two left. Mr. Gandhi, how much have you been affected by
defeats and when we see, for example the visuals of Priyanka holding you
after the U.P election loss. That picture, almost in a protective
manner that Priyanka is holding you and you are walking away. You tell
me what's happening in your mind out there. Do you feel overwhelmed by
loss, by defeat, because you've had quite a few off late? How have you
dealt with it?
Rahul: It all depends on what you're
trying to do. I told you that I'm here because I want to help use the
energy of this country. I want to make this country powerful. I want to
project the ideas of this country. To do that, I think there are
basically 3 things one needs to do. One, is changing the way we do
politics here. Getting away from the superficialities, getting away from
the small issues and moving deeper into the issues right. Questioning
the system, changing the system. Things like RTI, things like Lokpal,
things like how we choose our candidates. Things like bringing
youngsters into politics. Second is empowering the women of this
country. Really bringing them into the system. Really pushing them
forward. And third is using the energy of the youth of this country.
Bringing in the type of jobs that they need. This stuff is not done in 5
minutes. This stuff is frankly not done in this type of discussions.
This stuff is done through concentrated thinking and long term work.
It's frankly difficult work, it's painful work. If we're thinking about
that and thinking that's what we want to do, defeat just makes you
stronger, it makes you want to do more. I don't go into an election
thinking, if we lose it's the end of the world. We lose some elections,
we win some elections. The real thing is that it's a heart thing. It's a
soul thing. Why are you here? I asked you that question, why am I
sitting here? I'm sitting here because I feel with all my heart that we
need to change the system here and not enough people are actually asking
that question.
Arnab: Mr. Gandhi, my last question to
you in the course of this interaction is this. Your father was forced
into politics by circumstances. In your case as well, when you said
power is poison and spoke about how your mother Sonia Gandhi came and
she cried. If I put that together with some of what you've said, it
might reinforce the image of a reluctant prince. It's not my phrase, I'm
sure you've heard this phrase used against you or to describe you a
number of times. Therefore Mr. Gandhi, the last question is this. Had
you not been a Gandhi, would you have been in politics at all?
Rahul: If you look at my spirit, regardless of what I do, if I'd been
born in India, regardless of what I do, I don't like unfairness. It just
makes my blood boil. I don't like it. And in whatever I did, if I saw
unfairness, I would stand up Against it. That's the heart of my
politics.
Arnab: If you were not a Gandhi, would you be
in politics? Some say this is a circumstance thrust on you Mr. Gandhi.
You've been thrust into this situation. You're trying to justify to
yourself that you need to do it. Heart of heart, are you a politician?
Had you not been a Gandhi, would you be in politics?
Rahul: Maybe you find me strange because... Arnab: No, I don't find you strange
Rahul: You sort of implied that, but maybe I look like an anomaly in
the environment that I'm in. Maybe that's what you're saying and frankly
in a lot of ways, I am an anomaly in the environment that I'm in. The
power is poison remark, and I tell this to my sister, I tell it to my
mother and my mother tells it to me. I don't get driven by the desire
for power. I'm just not driven by it. For me power is an instrument that
can be used for certain things. But for me, it's not interesting to own
it, to capture it or to hold it. Maybe its because of my family
circumstances and what happened to my family. Power per se, the quest
for power, the thirst for power is not there is me. What is there in me,
is a desire, a strong desire to reduce the pain that people feel. To
reduce the pain that people feel as a result of the system that is
predatory. As a result of the system that need not be there. As a result
of system that can change if we just start to ask the deeper question.
And we stop asking the superficial questions. Again, and maybe the
seventh time I want to repeat it to you. What are those deeper
questions? The deeper question is, why is power so concentrated in this
country? Why is it that the Chief Minister of a state has the access to
any decision in the entire state? Why is it that candidates are chosen
in closed rooms? Why is it that people do not have access to the
candidates' decision? Why is it that our policies are made behind closed
doors by 5 or 6 people? Why is it that the perspective of one minister
is completely different from the one who is following him? What that's
telling me is that we're not exactly taking the voice of the people into
policy. We're not actually taking the voice of the people into the
political system. You said about the Aam Aadmi Party and you said, 'you
criticised them and you praised them'. I liked what I saw as far as the
representation, bringing in people, I thought that was an interesting
concept. We've done that kind of stuff in the Youth Congress. That was
interesting to me.
Arnab: Isn't bringing in people when
you disregard the legal process and sit on a protest outside Rail
Bhavan and then you also force your decision and your minister is always
right. You avoided my question on the Aam Aadmi Party and I'm glad
you've come to it. Tell me Mr. Rahul Gandhi, were you angry with Sushil Kumar Shinde
giving a face-saver to Arvind Kejriwal? It was reported. I didn't mean
to go back to it, you brought it back. The accusation is that you're
still doing deals with the Aam Aadmi Party?
Rahul:
What I liked about what I saw in the Aam Aadmi Party was people coming
into their system. I liked that. But what's different between us &
them is that we have structure. We develop processes. That I didn't see
much of.
Arnab: Were you upset with Mr. Sushil Kumar
Shinde for giving them a way out during the recent Dharna? Do you fell
they should've been offered a face-saver?
Rahul: You're going back Arnab
Arnab: Yes, to specifics
Rahul: It's not specifics. It's frankly superficialities
Arnab: How is it superficial?
Rahul: It's completely superficial
Arnab: This is the most relevant question
Rahul: No it's not. Whether Mr. Shinde should've apologised, whether he
should've done this or done that is, it's a fact and it happened. But
the real core issues in this election are, 1)Are we going to head
towards a democracy, towards deepening our democracy and towards opening
up the system or are we going to head towards concentration of power?
2) Are we going to head towards empowerment of women? Are we going to be
a half strong nation? Be a half proud nation? Or are we going to
actually empower women? Those are the questions. And you know, if you
listen to the debate that's going on, about the elections, that's not
the debate. There's nothing in the debate about how we're going to move
forward on the RTI paradigm. How we're going to move forward on the
corruption paradigm. There's nothing in the debate about funding of
political parties. There's nothing in the debate about how we're going
to choose political candidates. There's nothing in the debate about how
policies must be made. These are the fundamental things. These are the
things that actually make an impact.
Arnab: You're
you're avoiding a debate. Will you have a debate with Narendra Modi if
he agrees to a debate on any of these issues? My question is direct. If
Narendra Modi says I'm willing to debate these issues...
Rahul: I'm debating these issues by building structures in the Congress party that's going to transform it.
Arnab:
Why shouldn't there be a debate between the key political party
candidates on all sides? Let them talk. Let them have a conversation
Rahul: You're more than welcome. You have to start that debate. As far as I'm concerned, the debate is taking place.
Arnab: I'm ready to start the debate. Are you ready for it? Then I can go and ask Mr. Narendra Modi if he's ready for it
Rahul: You start the debate. But the real issue is doing this stuff.
The real issue is doing this stuff in the party machine. The only people
who are doing that, is us. And frankly, we can stick for it. We've just
said that 15 constituencies in this country in the Congress party are
going to be chosen by primaries. No one said a word about it.
Arnab: Of course, it's mentioned everywhere. It hasn't impressed too many people.
Rahul: But the discussion hasn't gone there. So all I'm saying is, as
youngsters and as serious politicians, one has to ask the fundamental
questions. The fundamental question this election is, are we going to
open up the system? Are we going to close the system? What is going to
be the role of women going forward? How are we going to get jobs for
youngsters in this country? You asked me a whole bunch of questions. You
didn't ask me once on how we're going to get jobs for youngsters in
this country. You didn't ask me once about what we're going to do for
the women for this country. And I'm going to tell you what I think.
Arnab:
But Mr. Rahul Gandhi, if I was to do that, I would listen to a Rahul
Gandhi speech as I said. This is an interview. I'm getting an
opportunity to ask you specific questions. You called my specific
questions superficial. I, with respect disagree. I feel my questions are
specific and you need to answer the specific questions as specifically
as possible.
Rahul: You're more than welcome to ask
these questions. But let's also move the debate to a place where we're
actually reaching towards fundamentals. What should be the role of women
in this country? How can we enhance their role? How do we bring jobs to
millions of people. For example, every single person who comes to me
from abroad, Japan, France, Germany, America and tell me 'Listen, we
need an alternative to Chinese manufacture'. We're very happy with what
the Chinese give us, but we need another port. There's global energy
saying we want to move manufacturing to India. The Congress party, the
UPA Govt have built the corridors, we've built the North-South,
East-West corridor. We built 3 times the roads the NDA built. Why are we
not having a discussion on those topics?
Arnab: I
asked you that question during the course of the interview. Did UPA Govt
let you down? Because Mr. Rahul Gandhi, when foreign investors want to
invest in India, they want a clean investing environment. They don't
want crony capitalism. They do not need scams. They do not need
ministers who behave like Govts exist on their rent. They do not need
the A Rajas and the Aircel Maxis scams. The climate Mr. Rahul Gandhi has
become vitiated with corruption. And therefore, the answer to that is
and I really want you to address this. If you had spoken out earlier,
and lets bring this interview to a finality. If you had spoken out on
these issues earlier, perhaps today we would not be in a situation where
India is not the preferred investment destination. You get my point?
Rahul: Actually, the RTI right, has basically changed the game in
India. What it has done, is that it has basically opened up the
structures. And what used to be hidden, can no longer be hidden. That's
the bottom line. The bottom line is large number of corruption issues
that were hidden, that nobody would have found out about, came out
because of the RTI. We did that. Now please go to our Opposition states,
please go to their states and ask them if they have RTI Commissioners.
The issue here is very simple. The issue is do you want an open system?
Do you want a system where these things are out in the open? Or do you
want a closed system where these things are hidden?
Arnab: I think we should have a debate Mr. Modi
Rahul: The debate is taking place right now
Arnab:
The debate has to take place between individuals. My final question,
Mr. Gandhi. Will you be open to a debate between key candidates or
representatives of the major parties? Will you participate in such a
debate if there were to be one?
Rahul: There is a
national debate taking place right now. The national debate taking place
right now is the following. There is the Congress Party that believes
in openness, that believes in RTI, that believes in Panchayati Raj, that
believes in giving people power. And there is our Opposition that
believes in concentrated power. That's the debate that's taking place.
That's what the election is all about. We fundamentally believe and the
Congress Party has always believed that this country has to be ruled by
its people.
Arnab: Can you take back this election or
have you lost this election before its begun? Most of the surveys are
saying Congress party will be reduced to its lowest ever tally. What
would you say to that, Mr. Rahul Gandhi?
Rahul: This
country has always been run & successfully when large numbers of
people were involved in the decision making. Historically, when you look
at when this country has done well, it has done well when we have
involved people.
Arnab: You know what Modi says to
that, he says you gave them 60 years. He says give me 60 months. He said
that in UP at Gorakhpur when he spoke recently. I want you to respond
to that.
Rahul: My response to that is that in the
last 10 years, we gave the country the fastest economic growth its ever
had. My response is that, we did more for opening up the system than any
Govt before us. My response is that we have completely changed the
paradigm with our rights based development model. We have given MGNREGA
which has transformed the rural economy. We are talking about AADHAR
which is going to give money directly to the people. To just brush aside
the idea that Congress party has been in power for 60 years, we are
growing at the rate at which we are growing because of the Congress
party.
Arnab: Are you battle ready?
Rahul: Battle ready, of course. We're going to win.
Arnab: Mr. Rahul Gandhi, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to you.
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